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 Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander

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PostSubject: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:07 pm

Ok, basically, I think that from a balance standpoint, scavenger is a bit too weak, and wastelander is a bit too strong. My solutions:

- Give Wastelander 100 HP to start. By improving the endurance skill, the wastelander can gain more health, up to a limit of 25 or 50, and will also gain a small amount of melee resistance. This allows wastelanders to retain their health advantage, without it being too overpowered; It would actually have to be earned, and wouldn't be as overpowered overall.

- Give Scavenger 100 HP. Not much else to say here. Their low health is an balance issue in combat, especially regarding armor. The way I see it, there's no need to make them weaker than any of the other classes, since they already have limited crafting abilities to balance out their more rapid scavenging.

- A Big problem that I noticed relating to Armor: Against Bullets, A Scavenger in Juggernaut Armor Has the equivalent of 157.5 HP, while a regular class has the equivalent of 210 HP, and a Wastelander has the equivalent of 315 Health. This right here is a HUGE imbalance in combat, and my main reason for making this post. I understand that the other classes aren't built for fighting, but the fact that an Armored Wastelander effectively has 100-200 more HP than any other class is a bit excessive. That's 17 Shots center of mass to kill with a P226, as opposed to 9 for a Scavenger Juggernaut.

- Another, harder to implement solution could be a DT system like the one in New Vegas, where every armor has a flat number of damage points it negates, up to a maximum percentage of damage per attack. (85% would be good, it's 80% in New Vegas). With this system, riot armor could be effectively used against pistols and light rifles, but not .308's, .44's or .50's. This system would also make the KS more useful against armored enemies than the Remington.

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:17 am

Hey look, this thread again. Copy pasta

Scavenger:
The gatherers, the pack-rats, the man with the dough, the hunters, the scavengers excel at being highly mobile ressource pickers. Where they are more fragile in terms of health, they are very agile and enjoy the ability of carrying more gear than any other class, making them excellent scouts and caravaneers and rangers. Scavengers enjoy having the single most powerful community oriented class skill: the construction and operation of mining thumpers. Not even the scientist's own class skill comes as powerful as the scavenger's mining ability.
As a scavenger, if you aren't gathering resources, then you're either mining farming them using miners and grubs, or you are spending resources, dropping them in your community stockpile or dead. A scavenger is the least well suited for the frontlines, they are at their best in the back lines, running supply lines, scouting out the enemy from afar or assassinating them with a high-powered precision rifle. As combatants, they are fragile, but incredibly fast, agile and if smart about their stamina, impossible to catch for slower folks. In my opinion, a scavenger is best at long range combat or harass maneuvers with low-damage, high firing rate weapons and shotguns.

Scientists:
The madmen, the healers, the logical minds, the lords of the Old World Blues, the scientists are, according to most players, the most overpowered class in the game because of its incredibly huge crafting list, only the engineer comes second to him in crafts. The scientists have the game's most recognizable and requested class skill: healing the wounded. As a scientist, you will work closely with the engineer and the scavengers for craft items and resources in order to create items of incredible value to you and your community, such as power sources, medical equipment, pulse table and many more. When it comes to combat, you're around the mid-lines, both providing fire support with your weapons and tending to the wounded and dying with your class skill, medical crafts and defibrillators. You are a walking saint in the wasteland, the sight of a scientist heralds great good and mad science. In recent updates, the scientist has become even more powerful, a new sub-type of scientist emerging from a new craft added to their list: Cyber-Lords. This sub-type of scientist play allows them to play a more aggressive role in both offense and defense. They can lead a horde of droids into combat, devastating the enemy front lines with incredible firepower or holding the lines on their own with their robots and keeping them maintained and operational with the recharge stations, rotating them in and out and allowing their allies to use their own robots if they own any. This can lead to many scientists literally bolstering their ally's ranks with greater numbers and higher firepower with a robotic armada.
They can also provide their allies with Conglomerate technology with pulse weaponry with rifles, LMGs and snipers using cheap and efficient ammo.

Engineers:
"Hey there, buddy, I'm an engineer, I solve problems. Not problems such as what is beauty, because that would fall in the conundrums of philosophy. No; I solve practical problems"
The engineers are the class most sought after by beginners and veterans alike for their various utility and survival crafts. The engineers are the Gun Runners and the Scooters of this world (Catch-a-ride!). The engineer's knowledge of mechanical and applied science makes them a peer to their Science Counterpart. The engineer serves as mechanics, gunsmiths and, depending on the player's own skill, air pilots. Their place in a community is at its center alongside the scientist and the cultivator as craftsmen. On the battlefield, an engineer's place is at the rear, with the gear, serving as the rearguard and field engineer to provide ammo and other supplies for their comrades for the Scavengers to carry out to the frontlines. Engineers can also provide weapon upgrades such as sights, foregrips, silencers and magazine upgrades and more, making weapons even more specialized and diverse.
Aside from weapons and ammo, the engineer can craft vehicles ranging from a crappy little sedan to cargo truck, passing by the pedo-van, and if the engineer is a VIP, he can also craft helicopters and a plane. The engineer's class skill is a subtle and passive one: as an engineer becomes more skillful in his art, he finds ways to reduce the crafting costs of his class crafts. On small crafts such as small firearms, it won't be noticeable, but the skill truly shines with the larger crafts. He is also capable of crafting some items require for larger crafts, such as servos and engines. The engineer is limited only by the resources his community or clients possess. An engineer's best friend is the scavenger for they bring all they need to work without too many interruptions. An engineer's best clients are Wastelanders, requesting both guns and ammo in large quantity to go to war and raid enemies and protect his own allies.

Wastelanders: the mad max class of the game. Tough, and usually well armed and trained, Wastelanders are the brunt force of a community. They are the spearhead of an attack and usually also the last defense of a community. Wastelanders have a particular skill that allows them to be more proficient at the use of armors and move more freely. Wastelanders also possess a unique ability amongst any classes: they are capable of entering and stealing grub eggs from antlion hives. This ability proves to be very useful to communities who want to be able to farm resources in their base leisurely. Wastelanders have the ability to craft the most balanced melee weapon in the game: the machete. High attack speed, good blocking, good damage and light, the machete is truly a fighter's last line of defense when all else fails and a very good secondary weapon to own. A wastelander's place in a community is on its borders and near the center, keeping a thing line of defense for them and providing excellent raiding power. Wastelanders are also closely related to Scavengers for they are as good as a scavenger when it comes to recycling things that won't be useful to the community.

Cultivators
Cultivators are, by most people, considered the least powerful class of all because of their expensive crafts that require large amount of initial investments and a class skill that is only useful with a very expensive craft item. Aside from the obvious, a cultivator is best at the center of the community, supported by the scavenger who brings him the resources and foodstuff he needs to make himself useful to the group and defended by the Wastelanders and occasional Cyber-Lord type Scientist. Cultivators provide the things a community need to live and thrive in the wasteland, making the wasteland seem less hostile and more homely. A good amount of players will only ever eat uncooked beans and dirty water because they won't or can't afford making their delicacies, running after scientists and begging for rad pills, only to start the process over again. Cultivators bring something that can't be crafted: morale. A well fed community is one that works well. The state of a cultivar it's oven and number of plants is a very good indicator of how well a community is holding up.

If we have to attribute an element to each of the classes based on the Japanese natural element, being Fire, Water, Earth Wind and Metal, the classes would go as follow:

Wastelander: Fire
Wastelanders are a class meant to be agressive and powerful. Volatile and inflammable. The Wastelanders bring the heat of battle onto their enemies, lighting the fires of war and beating drums of battle

Scientist: Water
Science is an ongoing, ever evolving thing, as is life. The scientist follows the  ebb and flow of war and peace, being agents of health and care, while in war, they can turn into lords of machine and direct armies of droids to decimate their enemies, crashing on them as a tidal wave

Engineer: Metal
The engineer arts in the mechanics of machinery, physics and science. They stand firm and well grounded into their work and knowledge, they bend and mold metal into deadly weapons and tools of peace.

Cultivators: Earth
The cultivators. know the secrets of the lands, how to grow the crops to feed the hungry and purify the taint in food and water. They have the knowledge to make the Earth a place worth living in again, were they to manage to gather enough resources.

Scavenger: Wind
Freedom. It is the most valuable thing to a scavenger. Freedom of movement. Freedom of action. Freedom of mind and freedom of the body. A scavenger is a roaming, walking beacon of what humanity should aspire to come back to. Free from the shackles of radiation, war and fear. The scavenger lets the wind set him into a direction and gladly follows, knowing that no matter where he goes, the wind will always lead him home safely.

EDIT: I wrote thisup on the train on my way to and from the school im going to attend starting next monday. I remember we had a thread where i posted a similar post and ended up being spot-on on what a lot of people thought the classes were meant to be played as. I think this is a refinement of that post. enjoy

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:31 pm

Ok, just to start off, sorry If this thread is copied, but I didn't see another one of these anywhere.
Now, my main problem is not the fact that the scavenger isn't meant to be used in combat. My problem is the fact that they're flat out too weak. I would understand traits such as reduced melee damage or carrying capacity as an alternative, but I think that automatically assigning players lower or higher health due to the class they selected is a bit unreasonable. Saying that scavengers should be automatically weak because of their job or saying that wastelanders should be automatically stronger because of their job is like saying that all people who work desk jobs are unfit, or that anyone who has an outdoor job is automatically harder to kill than someone else. Now, I wouldn't question it if everyone had 75 health to start and endurance could be used to raise it to 100, but we all know that that's not going to happen.

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:07 pm

ok, honestly, in my personal experience, I would rather have reduced maximum health and increased movespeed because it allows me to run away from what would deal damage to me

new players get more time to run away from creatures than those with higher levels, so by the time they are away from the mob, it will have gone back to wandering.

another thing that's great about reduced health is that it doesnt take as much medpacks to heal yourself and therefor you save up on medkit usage. which is amazing.

the carrying capacity at base for scavenger is 110, anyone else is 70 I believe, correct me if im wrong. 40 lbs of extra gear i can carry around is the equivalent of 10 advanced medkits, or 20 boxes of shotgun shells. that's ridiculously amazing!

another thing that's great about lowered max hp is that you tend to play more carefully than you would a wastelander because you are conscious of your own fragility. that is basically adding a variable to the learning curve of the game.

so 4 bonuses for the price of 25% of my max health? yes please! like they say in games: the only important hit point is the last one, the rest dont matter

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having good rp doesnt make one fit for staff duties, especially if said people are always playing with the same small group of people and no one else. staying in an echo chamber only makes your own words reflected back to you and whoever else is in the chamber. people applying for staff need to not only know the staff, but also how the playerbase can react to interactions between itself, the general staff base and the applicant
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:48 pm

Jeff Belinger wrote:

another thing that's great about reduced health is that it doesnt take as much medpacks to heal yourself and therefor you save up on medkit usage. which is amazing.

Or you know... you can just not bring yourself up to 100% health and still have more health than a scavenger from the same amount of medpacks

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:29 pm

I see your point there Jeff, but I just don't think the benefits fully outweigh the base disadvantage you have to deal with in most combat situations, which are a VERY important aspect of PostnukeRP, unless you're a hippie with a bodyguard.

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:51 pm

That's because you're only thinking of PvP and solely that.
Things aren't always about players killing eachother, I can tell you the game mode is not based around that idea. It's based on cooperation, group survival and developing relations and tensions between players.

If this were all and solely about PvP, then you could kill people at will. Like in Fallout.
This isn't Fallout, it ain't Metro, not S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Wasteland/Wasteland2. this is Postnuke RP. Previously known as Cyborgs Don't Cry.

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:56 pm

I get that PVP isn't the focus of the server, but it is an important aspect that has a pretty big influence on the state and relations of different factions. I just think a more balanced system would be ideal for situations where players do need to fight eachother.

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:46 pm

Oh hey, a class with a main focus is collecting should be buffed to be more viable in combat.

Oh hey, a class with a main focus is combat should be nerfed so the other classes are more viable in combat.

Facedesk. If anything the scavenger should be nerfed for combat considering it's armor gives 50% melee damage reduction and hardly slows you down.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:44 pm

OmegaHaxors:
 

I agree, the only reason why people want the scavenger to be buffed is so that they can collect tons of resources and use the class in combat. The whole point of the scavenger class is for SCAVENGING, not PVP.

When you become a wastelander, your usefulness for your community decreases exponentially when not in combat. That's why wastelanders are NOT overpowered.

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing Scavenger/Wastelander   Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:40 pm

As i have explained above in my theory on PNRP classes. I mean, it's pretty much spot on. I have recently started raiding as a scavenger and what I wrote is pretty much fucking spot on. My community knows I'm always carrying useful things so I'm the supply runner/sniper. And as I experienced, a good scavenger that takes damage is one that runs the fuck out of dodge and heals up before going back in

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