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 How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.

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neo_child



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PostSubject: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:35 am

I never liked this rule. When I joined the server for the firs time, this rule was recently removed (or when the message that stated it was still there) and in my head at the time, I thought, "Its not THAT bad right?"

Its very fucking bad.

I logged on to see the rules changed and my jaw dropped at how awfully thought out it was.

Last I checked, there is no log to state who placed their vendor down first besides eye witnesses and there will be bias and lack of information on that front. Screenshots will help the situation but you have to be VERY thorough and its an unnecessary hassle. Also, what happens when someone crashes or has to reconnect? Props stay for 5 minutes but placed Tools will instantly disappear. Does it negate them being the "first person" there?

Then the fact that if you were to have totally different vendors next to each other, the person who placed his vendor first can place a hit on anyone he chooses as long as his vendor is still there. How? By adding items in his vendor that is exactly similar or with a lower/higher price. Can admins check vendor logs? No clue, so this is VERY sketchy and discourages many players from even using Vendors unless they stay on the server 24/7.

Please rethink and clarify the rule. I think its alright given that there will be competition and some vendors are outright better but the fact that this rule is very sketchy and not even thought out properly is the problem.

Anyone who logs on at an awkward time and stays on can pretty much dominate a huge portion of the town. Not to mention people with multiple vendors. They can just space their Vendors all around town and you can't do anything about it. You can't even place hits on the vendor owner since they owned the place first. I also recall someone killing another person over a DOOR and got away scott free and this rule is put back into play which is a fucking slip up of the century if anything.

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TL;DR : Remove this fucking horrible idea of a rule or actually think this through without creating so many loop holes for people to cheat the system aka admin logs.

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ahugeabruceofpower

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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm

this hit rule is game over the community is dying we should all quit #vendorlivesmatter etc
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neo_child



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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:23 pm

ahugeabruceofpower wrote:
this hit rule is game over the community is dying we should all quit #vendorlivesmatter etc

Bruce plz
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Bizz
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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:48 pm

All of these reasons is why I removed vendor hits arbitrarily in the first place. Now all the staff have assured me that they can deal with it properly and refine any loopholes in the rule, but I'm glad that you've voiced your concerns. It's really hard to log a lot of things like this, especially yeah, considering the whole crashing issue (I'll be honest, I didn't even consider that one. Good point.)
The problem is that without some way for people to challenge pricing competition, vending machines end up everywhere.

There could be a conceivable ways to log vendor placements properly, but my biggest concern with the rules that it doesn't cover how often you can place a hit on someone for having a competing vendor. Also, what to do if you're killed as killing someone is irrelevant to whether or not their vendor is placed?

Assuming I can find a perfect way to log every thing, what does everyone think about the other concerns? Should you be required by the rules to remove/move your vendor whenever you're killed for a vendor hit? Should there be a timed delay on vendor hits? Does anyone else have an idea of how to add another way for people to hinder competing vendors?

One suggestion I have is to make generators behind locked doors raidable so people can bust competing vendor's power supply, as all power generators can be damaged/destroyed to a point where they no longer work, but I dont know what people would think of that.
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ahugeabruceofpower

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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:22 pm

that sounds badass not gonna lie
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neo_child



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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:17 pm

[[Suggestion at 2nd half of the post, Rant about how bad the rule is on 1st half, TL;DRs included]]


If anything the comparison with the rule on resource piles under the Murder section should apply first before a hit. Like, maybe a warning, but its too sketchy and although I like the idea of less vendor competition, the fact remains that people can easily find many loop holes and cause mass problems.

I know for a fact that someone has already abused this rule by placing an item in his vendor to put a hit on someone else's vendor. Granted the "placed first" and "20 PHX" applied so its the fault of the victim but fact is that someone can just put an item in their vendor to create a valid hit.

It can be abused against people without their knowledge. Say I own a vendor selling food and allow another vendor to sell ammo. I could place a few boxes of ammo in a vendor at a lower price and call a valid hit. It breaks the "No Baiting" rule and points out a major flaw.

The only way to prevent this is to literally record your gameplay or screenshot EVERYTHING but even then, its only at the time. A person can easily make an excuse that he placed items later down the line that he wanted to sell or that an item was out of stock.
There are too many inconsistencies with the ruling that can only be settled if there was a Vendor log, which, as you said, would take some time.


TL;DR : Rule can be abused as stated and pretty much explained how it can be abused.


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The only solution is to rethink the Hit system. And as to answer your questions, Add a time limit between hits since Admins can log when a person dies, if another hit is placed during that time, it could be invalid.

You can't hinder vendor production. People would eventually create a vendor to get some extra resources through selling gear they don't need.

You would have to create a Flea Market of sorts to keep people in town if they want to sell gear.
If someone wants to sell equipment, they need to sit next to their vendor or else people will get a message saying "The Owner is too far away to trade" and then you would have to create a "Vendortron" of sorts to automate that process. It adds something people look forward to yet prolonging the inevitable Vendor situation.

You could also make Vendortrons susceptible to getting "hacked" to be added to the Wastelander or Scientist perks where leveling it up would allow you to use a hacking tool faster to gain 10% of the store's resources. A Donator perk would also be applicable where the hacking of Donator owned Vendortron would take longer. Of course then you would have to program a cooldown timer, reword the rules to where hacking a Vendortron in public is a KoS offence, yada yada yada.

Its all ideas here.


TL;DR : Add cooldown timers to hits, allow someone to call RDM if person A hires person B and C to kill you twice in a row.
Create Flea Market styled vendors with a Vendortron that will automate process. Create hacking tool and allow hacking of robot. Add skill perks to Wastelander and/or Scientist to speed up Hacking process.

Lots of work for developers but wishful thinking.



EDIT: The raidable generator idea is good but it would be a bit extreme where people will see a Solar panel/Generator and immediately raid, NOT to kill the generator but the owner who might be wearing good gear/weapons. Same thing being seen with the Vendor hits recently.
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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:12 pm

The rule is Fine, to be honest It fits 100% with the wasteland. There shouldn't be shop keepers being all happy, they should want the most amount consumer action since resources run the wasteland. We already have a rule on hits for an hour,
(One cannot place a contract on the same person more than once within the hour.) and also hacking a vender? Really, you know how abuse that could be? Person A could hire Person B to protect him, Person A hacks Person C's Vender, Person C's friends and all come to attack Person A, Person B kills all of them. It's not really different then scamming, its just that players are conforming to bandits now Since it is A LOT easier and rules are being "Un-Nightmared". For The raiding rule on the Generators, it's very Iffy, that would make people not want to vender at all. I'm pretty sure there are logs on who dropped an item so I would assume that a vender has log to it.

My Suggestion
Honestly have like a warning pop up when you setup a vender say "Warning another Vender unit is within the area(20 Squares)", this would require them to accept that they understand that they could be a target for a hit. And have the venders weld to the ground after being set

Common Sense
I Think that If you get killed from the vending rule, that should spark some things in your mind,"Maybe I should move my vender".If you want to sell an item extremely bad put a sign/hologram of the item you want to sell, venders are just easy AFK money (Considering if the price is right). It's not fair that all you have to do is setup a vender and have no consequences for them, all other things that let you afk while something does work is raidable. (Grubs)


Tl;DR
The rule is fine


Last edited by Yummy on Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:31 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : One cannot place a contract on the same person more than once within the hour.)
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ahugeabruceofpower

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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:50 pm

I still wanna be able to raid power sources
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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:12 pm

ahugeabruceofpower wrote:
I still wanna be able to raid power sources
Dont we all
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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:16 pm

The fact of the matter being, the rule is fine as is, the playerbase is and always has been the issue. If you stop to wonder about things; at the beginning of Frostburnt, when we used a different name, there were about 10 or 13 rules in place. There are now well over 20. These were put in place over time because of players that abused the system instead of having moral integrity to judge right from wrong and NOT LIE TO ADMINISTRATORS ABOUT PETTY SITUATIONS.

The Rule is not flawed, the players that have no ability to act maturely and wisely about situations is what makes this rule "Flawed".

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Circle
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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:38 pm

Gnomp wrote:
The fact of the matter being, the rule is fine as is, the playerbase is and always has been the issue. If you stop to wonder about things; at the beginning of Frostburnt, when we used a different name, there were about 10 or 13 rules in place. There are now well over 20. These were put in place over time because of players that abused the system instead of having moral integrity to judge right from wrong and NOT LIE TO ADMINISTRATORS ABOUT PETTY SITUATIONS.

The Rule is not flawed, the players that have no ability to act maturely and wisely about situations is what makes this rule "Flawed".

There will always be those people, which is why new rules are added. I agree. But if we don't prevent them from doing all that stuff that makes everybody unhappy, what happens? They continue to make people unhappy. They will stay on the server to make people unhappy, and will stay until they are forced to stop what they are doing.

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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:06 pm

cheesus christ

bizzclaw spoke to me and we were trying to come up with some solutions. the rule is flawed, but not in the way everyone assumes it is.

it's flawed in the sense that the first person on the server has an auto monopoly if they set up fast enough, and other people who get on afterwards can't really do much about that.
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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:28 pm

Circle wrote:
There will always be those people, which is why new rules are added. I agree. But if we don't prevent them from doing all that stuff that makes everybody unhappy, what happens? They continue to make people unhappy. They will stay on the server to make people unhappy, and will stay until they are forced to stop what they are doing.

You speak to me as if I haven't been in this community for several years. I know that these are the laws that apply to the Server and the real world. And as Aesop has said, we are evaluating it, and until then it will remain in it's current state.

Telling a Veteran Staff member that "Things are they way they are and they just will be that way unless they're acted on" is silly and redundant, why else would you think we're in our seats of power if we didn't already know these things?

It's silly.

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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:35 pm

I dont like the re add so far ;/ I got baited and killed R.I.P.

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PostSubject: Re: How the "Vendor hits" rule is flawed.   Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:48 pm

Comrade Veteran Chernov wrote:
I dont like the re add so far ;/ I got baited and killed R.I.P.

Baiting is a clear violation of the rules, and I suggest that, if the circumstance applies, and you have strong concerns regarding the incident, that you make a forum report of the issue. You may also contact any administrator on our TeamSpeak server.

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