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 A Solution for "Bad Baiting"

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Bizzclaw
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PostSubject: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:13 am

So with the removal of baiting rules, it has provided a much better opportunity for factions to fight on valid terms. While this has expanded the game in that regard, it has introduced a new issue.

When I refer to "Bad Baiting", I'm referring too the practice in which players will deliberately annoy or harass players in to killing them, generating an act of war.

This has caused issues because it has actually reduced the instances of PVP, as people are much more fearful of triggering war requests, even contributing to the even greater level of stagnation on the server than the removal of baiting rules was meant to address. While it would be much easier for me to say that this sort of thing should just be specifically against the rules, administrating it would prove a much greater issue in the long run and wouldn't really solve the problem.

That's where the Witness system comes in to play.

How does the system work?
The witness system kicks in whenever a player kills a target from another faction they aren't in a war with. At that moment, it will determine if there are any of the target's faction members that can see the killer, (things such as Field of view, line of sight and distance are taken in to account for this) all of the faction members who witnessed the act are now marked as "witnesses" for the murder of the target, and a war request will only be triggered if enough time has passed and there is still at least one witness left.

For the sake of NLR, once a player witnesses any murder, they cannot "witness" another one for the duration of the witness time, meaning that players cannot go back and watch a fight between two factions and become witnesses again. This also extends to the player who was "murdered".

What does this system do; why Bother?
The Witness system is something I've been wanting to make for months, and not only does it solve the issue of bad baiting by removing the risk of war from killing people who mouth of to you, it also introduces a greater opportunity for Hitman, as if a hired gun is skilled enough to eliminate a target without being seen by the target's allies, he can get away without generating a war request.

When will it be implemented
I have spent the entire day (date of this post) developing the system. I'd like to thank Jwalker, Silentghost57, Ulysses, Charles Matthews, Vera Mikko, Gnomp, Aesop, Coront and Mr. Chacon for their help in testing. I could not of done this without their help. It will be implemented in the next few days once it's fully tested, and all feedback from this thread is taken in to account. Otherwise, it's pretty much done.

TL;DR: You can kill people from other factions and avoid war requests if there's no witnesses or you kill all the witnesses quickly enough.

If you have any comments or concerns about this system, please voice them. This is a major change to a integral part of the gamemode, so I want to make sure it's done properly.


Last edited by Bizzclaw on Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:55 am

Bizzclaw wrote:


TL;DR: You can kill people from other factions and avoid war requests if there's no witnesses or you kill all the witnesses quickly enough..

Sounds legit

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:07 am

sounds neat, it helps players fight back against baiters if they needed to, without causing wars of their own.

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:51 am

Quote :
it also introduces a greater opportunity for Hitman, as if a hired gun is skilled enough to eliminate a target without being seen by the target's allies, he can get away without generating a war request.


Time to snipe Folding Freeman through the radstorm of mojave again.

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:08 am

Bizzclaw wrote:

How does the system work?
The witness system kicks in whenever a player kills a target from another faction they aren't in a war with. At that moment, it will determine if there are any of the target's faction members that can see the killer, (things such as Field of view, line of sight and distance are taken in to account for this) all of the faction members who witnessed the act are now marked as "witnesses" for the murder of the target, and a war request will only be triggered if enough time has passed and there is still at least one witness left.

If it gets me banned less, I'm all for it.
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:26 am

After taking part in the testing of the system I believe it will solve the baiting issues were currently having without getting rid of it all together. The system works well and I'm glad it is being implemented!
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:31 am

Quote :
it will determine if there are any of the target's faction members that can see the killer, (things such as Field of view, line of sight and distance are taken in to account for this) all of the faction members who witnessed the act are now marked as "witnesses" for the murder of the target, and a war request will only be triggered if enough time has passed and there is still at least one witness left.

So it does not work if a faction ally sees it? Although im pretty sure you cannot accept a act of war if only a ally sees and act of war and informs you of it.

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:14 pm

I could easily make it include ally's, I originally didn't because I figured it would lead to unjust deaths if people thought they also had to kill the allies of whoever witnessed the murder even though they might not be involved, so the question really comes down too is what sort of justification for murder does a player have over faction members/allies of a single player. While I've always advocated that if a player gives you a reason to attack him (threaten's you, annoys you, breaks in to a locker, ect) him, and his faction members were fair game. This has never really extended to allies however, but I suppose it might be a thing to consider. It will also have to be clarified in the rules before this update is pushed I suppose.
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:32 pm

Bizzclaw wrote:


What does this system do; why Bother?
The Witness system is something I've been wanting to make for months, and not only does it solve the issue of bad baiting by removing the risk of war from killing people who mouth of to you, it also introduces a greater opportunity for Hitman, as if a hired gun is skilled enough to eliminate a target without being seen by the target's allies, he can get away without generating a war request.
So just to be sure, if you snipe someone from lets say 100m out and there are allies around him and don't see you or the person who shot the bullet, its fine right?
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:06 pm

Exactly. This was tested and is confirmed to work.
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:54 pm

Oh god... does this mean if I bait a moron who tries to kill us, but we kill him, we get to kill everyone in his entire faction who witnessed it??? AWESOME!

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:51 pm

Well, you sort of have already been able too, it's just not too clear in the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:35 pm

thats pretty neat

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:49 pm

person gets a hit placed on them That person is with his buddys, All the sudden 5 guys come over and kill them all. "NO WITTNESSESS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:25 am

Wendy Walsh wrote:
person gets a hit placed on them That person is with his buddys, All the sudden 5 guys come over and kill them all. "NO WITTNESSESS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only 'witnesses' are faction members of that person, they're not going to be able to just kill everyone in that area.

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:42 pm

This should be changed to- "A new system to get a faction that is active and gets baited easily demolished in minutes"
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:42 pm

If you remove the need to warn people before killing them if they're baiting then it makes baiting much more risky, because someone baiting with his buddies runs the risk of getting himself and all his friends wiped for it with the new witness system.
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:43 pm

Sweet
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:01 am

Just a bit of an update on this, it appears that due to a failure on my part, the file containing the changes that enforce this system was never uploaded, and despite statements that the system was implemented, it in fact was not implemented until yesterday. Sorry about this guys, I was sure I had uploaded it but the transfer must of failed or I did something wrong. I thought at first that maybe I put it on the Wasteland server, but it's not there either so I have no idea what happened.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that it wasn't broken before like many were led to believe, it just simply wasn't even there. It's there now and reports are coming in that it's working out greatly.

If you have any bugs with it, I'd prefer if you posted them here as opposed to making a new thread. It will make things much easier to track. Thank you for all of your feedback!
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:51 am

This is stupid. TL;DR: You can kill people from other factions and avoid war requests if there's no witnesses or you kill all the witnesses quickly enough.  I mean why?  You want to create a magnet to get people player your server.  This part of the witness system is the exact opposite of a magnet!  Why should witnesses be killed becasue they watched their faction member die and they don't do anything about it?  I mean, if they do do something about it I get why they should be killed, but witnessing it and walking away?  That's just retarded.

And how about no baiting at all?  That'll fix all your "baid baiting" problems real quick.

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:59 am

Bizz let me just tell you something. If it were a serious baiter. They would abuse the shit out of this here is why.

1: When you kill someone from another faction and OF COURSE people are gonna watch. LOOK AT ALL THE FREE LOOT AROUND YOU MY DUDES. Anyone in a faction that saw that. Pfff kiss your T60 Goodbye. Because ima blow you up with a Ks-12. GOTTA KILL ALL WITNESSES. This is why it makes good for baiting.

2: Ask a player to make a random faction. Tell them to shoot you once. Kill them. Anyone watching YOU CAN KILL TOO. WHOA FREE LOOK EVERYWHERE. PLUS anyone you kill in another faction there buddies cant kill you. F R E E L O O T T O T H E E X T R E M E

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:44 am

Gaungy wrote:
Bizz let me just tell you something. If it were a serious baiter. They would abuse the shit out of this here is why.

1: When you kill someone from another faction and OF COURSE people are gonna watch. LOOK AT ALL THE FREE LOOT AROUND YOU MY DUDES. Anyone in a faction that saw that. Pfff kiss your T60 Goodbye. Because ima blow you up with a Ks-12. GOTTA KILL ALL WITNESSES. This is why it makes good for baiting.

2: Ask a player to make a random faction. Tell them to shoot you once. Kill them. Anyone watching YOU CAN KILL TOO. WHOA FREE LOOK EVERYWHERE. PLUS anyone you kill in another faction there buddies cant kill you. F R E E L O O T T O T H E E X T R E M E

1. KS-23*
2. You cannot tell someone to shoot you and then kill them if they do.
3. Yes, this is very good for baiting.

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:59 am

Sterben wrote:
This is stupid. TL;DR: You can kill people from other factions and avoid war requests if there's no witnesses or you kill all the witnesses quickly enough.  I mean why?  You want to create a magnet to get people player your server.  This part of the witness system is the exact opposite of a magnet!  Why should witnesses be killed becasue they watched their faction member die and they don't do anything about it?  I mean, if they do do something about it I get why they should be killed, but witnessing it and walking away?  That's just retarded.

And how about no baiting at all?  That'll fix all your "baid baiting" problems real quick.

A Programmed system that enforces a rule is a lot more effective than an actual rule. When baiting is done properly it can actually create very interesting scenarios. Besides, why would you just sit around and watch one of your own die? If you are in a faction and you see a friend go down and you don't do something about it, why join the faction in the first place? It's one of the responsibilities of being in a community. If you don't like it just look away when you see a faction member getting attacked (since the killer does get a list of witnesses), or just play solo.

Gaungy wrote:
Bizz let me just tell you something. If it were a serious baiter. They would abuse the shit out of this here is why.

1: When you kill someone from another faction and OF COURSE people are gonna watch. LOOK AT ALL THE FREE LOOT AROUND YOU MY DUDES. Anyone in a faction that saw that. Pfff kiss your T60 Goodbye. Because ima blow you up with a Ks-12. GOTTA KILL ALL WITNESSES. This is why it makes good for baiting.

2: Ask a player to make a random faction. Tell them to shoot you once. Kill them. Anyone watching YOU CAN KILL TOO. WHOA FREE LOOK EVERYWHERE. PLUS anyone you kill in another faction there buddies cant kill you. F R E E L O O T T O T H E E X T R E M E

I don't think you understand how the system works. Witnesses are only the other faction memebers of the person who was killed, not just anyone who saw the death. That would be stupid.
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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:09 am

Okay I understand what you mean as it is more clear now. So this is meant to be a more 50/50 for baiting and not just have it as the scum of the server

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PostSubject: Re: A Solution for "Bad Baiting"   Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Well, lets see.  Why would I watch one of my own die?  Maybe, because he's a complete idiot and doesn't understand that the warning is right down at the bottom left of his screen.  That's why.  And yes, they do create some interesting scenarioes.  Most of them being a baitor and his friends get some armor and then harass the victim for over an hour just to be total buttholes.  I'd definetly pay to see that.  Bravo!  You go baiters!  And a program that enforces does actually work a lot better than an actual rule, but how many people like that program?  As far as I know, not a lot of people do.  So why even have?  I don't get it.  You get all these complaints about baiting, and instead of making it better you make it worse! Why? (Sorry for no quote, it was acting up.)

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