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 Player death revision: Repair System

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Bizzclaw
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PostSubject: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:24 am

As you all know I picked up PostnukeRP after it's framework was established and I built Decay upon it form there, but rarely do I go back and change the framework. Either way, there are feature sin the game that, had I been in charge of creating it, would not of designed.

Rarely do I go back and revise these systems, but in this case I am. One of the problems with Postnuke is death. Death has never been handled right in the game in my opinion because you lose all equipped items. While this does make since for a game like base Postnuke where equipment is a lot cheaper, items are much more highly valued in decay. While it does rarely create interesting scenarios where people steal items from each other, more often than not it causes more grief than it's worth. Many rules are in place to allow PVP and while the hope was that PVP would happen between established players, in reality all I see is PVP happening from Established players to newer players, who, even despite having relatively good gear, still having nothing else after loosing this gear, whereas the established players have plenty of extra equipment should they themselves go down, assuming they even lose it because more often than not they just get it back out of their case.

The problem is that the death cost is static regardless of equipment, players with mountains of power armor lose out on hardly anything when they die while players with only one suit of combat armor lose everything on death, especially considering that the established players often get their gear back because their in groups, and nothing is lost anyways.

In Essence, the current death system in Decay is extreme punishment for newer players, and not even a problem for established players. This is wrong.

So how can this be addressed? well, I've been looking at some other games recently at how they approach player death in an MMO environment, and one example of this was Elite: Dangerous. In Elite:Dangerous, your value is determined by your ship and it's weapons and upgrades. When your ship is destroyed, you have to pay a percentage of the cost for these things to get your ship back. Now, for a newer player like me, it costs me around 50'000 credits, a good it of work for me, but not crippling, however, for a freind of mine who has 300 hours in the game, death for him costs around 15'000'000 credits. A crippling cost for me, but not much for him.

Thus, since the item stealing isn't really being used in a way that is beneficial to the server, and in my opinion doesn't make the game "fun", thus I came up with a solution.

Item Repair
Whenever you die, instead of dropping in your suitcase, armor, weapons and upgrades will be removed from your equipment and added to a new menu in your inventory: Repair.


Repairing items costs a fraction of the cost for crafting the item and in some cases some of the same required items. More expensive items will obviously cost more.

Admin logging systems will also track player item breakage


Admins can repair items in a player's inventory at no cost as well.




-EDIT-

Items crafted by Engineers, scientists and cultivators must be repaired by their crafting class, players can drop broken items have that class repair it.

Players who need to repair the items can request the base crafting requirements in chat without leaving the menu.
This could potentially create a whole new market for repairs, giving engineers and scientists the opportunity to offer services, but only if they stay with their shop.

It's pretty simple, but it will change the way the game-mode is played. The hope is that death is just as costly for long time players as it will be for newer players. I've run this idea by all of the owners and they all agree we want to see it, so it will be implemented once it's fully tested and working.

If we find that it doesn't work out, we can simply revert the system, but I really hope it doesn't come to that.


Last edited by Bizzclaw on Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mike Nespo
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:14 am

I really support this idea although I very much believe it will completely abolish PVP and wars... For this very reason, people war others for armor guns and their riches which now they can't. Although someone like me wars others to set a point and get armor and armor Is dank lol. Anyway if maybe you can enable your armor to drop damaged during war that would be nice for the other people who want lewt. Maybe even balance it out by putting resource drop up to a good 15-20 percent because just dropping ammo and resources is not enough. Although this will probably get rid of baiting entirely to be quite honest because the baiters do what they do to acquire the others riches... Well that's my input sorry if anything is misspelled or just bad grammar cuz I am using my phone but if u need me for testing just steam message me! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:18 am

This seems like it would be pretty nice but when you kill players what is dropped from their cases? I'm assuming just resources will drop. Also do broken items stay in the repair menu forever?
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:45 am

Ammo and resources will be dropped and items will stay in the menu until repaired. I might consider adding a "salvage" option which is like normal salvaging, but with a lesser salvage rate. Or I could just add a "discard" button.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:15 pm

How much is the fraction to repair the stuff?
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:50 pm

This seems like it would work either way but in my opinion there should be some kind of time limit that you have to repair your damaged gear within. Or maybe a limit to how many damaged items you can have and if you pass the limit wothout repairing your damaged gear then your gear will start to drop in your case. Otherwise it doesn't really seem like much of a loss at all. You can just have damaged items sit in the tab till you feel like repairing them or till you get the money. I understand that thats kind of the point so that new players don't just lose the only gear they have and so they still have a chance to get it back but this almost makes death meaningless unless you're carrying tons of resources. That's just my suggestion though. I still think this system is a pretty good idea the way it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:07 pm

I am opposed to this idea. In my opinion, this will ruin the risk of partaking in any kind of reckless action on the server. For example, if we remove the ability to lose armor and weapons, people will give zero shits about engaging in combat or any other reckless activities. Without the risk of losing your items entirely, death will become more of an annoyance then an actual problem, and if that becomes the case, players will engage in seriously dumb actions simply because they know they will not lose their favorite gear.

Lets say I am wearing a suit of T-60 or X-01, currently, I wouldn't be wearing it everywhere I go unless I have an extra pair of that armor I can wear in case this current one is stolen from me. With this new system, there is NO RISK to wearing the most powerful suits of armor in the game, and it seems kinda silly. I dunno about you, but I think that the current system of losing everything you have equipped is perfectly fine.

Also, the current system is perfect for wars, if you kill someone and they waltz right on back with the same suit of armor they were wearing when you killed them, they could permanently wear t-60 and not have to worry a bit, because lets be honest, most of the factions engaging in wars right now do not have any kind of shortage when it comes to resources. Wars will become almost pointless if you are not getting the gear they have equipped. If I am a member of a raider faction I am not going to kill a member of the BoS for their pocket change, I am going to kill them for their POWER ARMOR.

The threat of death should depend on what gear you are wearing, it should not be the same for a player wearing a merchant outfit compared to a player wearing T-60.


ANOTHER THING, the economy will be pretty much ruined by this, completely ruining the need for buying new weapons from anyone, THE DIFFERENT CLASSES WILL BECOME ALMOST OBSOLETE, there will be no need for shops once everyone gets the weapons they want, wastelanders won't be selling armor once the players are content, LITERALLY EVERYTHING WILL BE negatively effected.....except for maybe my loot counter?

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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:18 pm

I've read the post and I'll edit this post with my response once I get home.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:44 am

I do admit I am concerned about weapons not being sold by engineering classes/ect. Might consider maybe doing something different with guns, but I'm still adamant on the armor.
Also, in case I didn't make this clear enough, it will still require hard plates, servos, MF cells, and resources to repair, so I don't think people will sacrifice power armor for the sake of doing dumb things. Hard plates alone are worth a good bit and aren't the easiest thing to come by, and don't forget that most of the time when players that are established die they get their armor back anyways.

Think about all of those situations where a player dies in a base and is revived or gets killed in a Helicopter crash or just straight up gets revived in a conglo drop and gets their loot back after having their case guarded. This happens a lot, and now with this if that happens, they'll have to pay a lot of resources and hard plates, this will be a huge money sink, hopefully stabilizing the economy.

As far as weapons go, It might be interesting if only engineers could repair weapons. It wouldn't be too hard for me to add a "drop" option to the broken items, and any engineer could press [USE] on them to repair them for resources, replacing the broken item with the non-broken version.

Although, this would mean engineers would have to actually man a store instead of just leaving vending machines..... HEY! That's actually a really good thing! I like that. It could actually create a whole new market...
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:29 am

Wait, I thought this repair system was to help new players, how is going to help if it's going to be a money sink, new players always die to the dumbest things like raiders/yao guais/players/conglos, and veteran players never die in a normal day.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:22 am

The point is new players won't simply lose everything when they die and like he said it will depend on the armor that you have broken. A lower tier armor won't cost as much to repair thus making it easier for new players to get back their broken armor. It's easier on new players to lose their armor and have to pay a small price to get it repaired than to just lose all their armor and weapons and have to start from basically nothing till they can buy the things they lost again.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:57 pm

In my opinion, I would say give this a try and see what happens. Of course, the only way to test if it's an awesome system, is to implement it. At first I thought this would be an economy breaker, however this change my thoughts on how this will actually add something a unique market, for engineers especially. On the side note, you should also have the armors to be fixed by certain classes as well. I think this would make the wasteland more interesting. You know. Scamming n' all those shenanigans.

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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:28 pm

I've made this thread public for player feedback, the system is now finished and ready to go live, but I'll get people's opinions of it first. I'm sure there will be a lot of people who don't like it, so make your voice heard if you think it needs revision in some way. Either way, this update will be pushed, it just might still have some things it needs changed.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:38 pm

this sounds like a fun change
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:49 pm

I think your original resurgence idea is better. have it so where you can like favorite one of the things you have equipped, and if you die you drop all your shit thats not favorited in its 'damaged' form and the thing you favorited will be in your repair menu, because this is just game breaking. Like people used to bait for gear and fun, but now they'll just do it to be assholes and break your junk. But idk, im banned for 15/0.

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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:59 pm

This seems like it'll solve one the major issues a lot of people have with the server. The issue of equipment taking an arm and a leg to create and all it takes is one bullshit buggy NPC instantly killing you for you to lose your top tier armor and barret to some scrub who happened to be passing nearby.

Though it'll piss off the loot baiters, fuck them, they're part of the issue. They're not making the gamemode less of a safeland, in fact they just piss off newbs from staying, and make people not want to leave town.

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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:59 pm

Telly the Scorned wrote:
Though it'll piss off the loot baiters, fuck them, they're part of the issue. They're not making the gamemode less of a safeland, in fact they just piss off newbs from staying, and make people not want to leave town.

That's certainly one way to put the issue in to perspective.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:24 pm

Bizzclaw wrote:
Telly the Scorned wrote:
Though it'll piss off the loot baiters, fuck them, they're part of the issue. They're not making the gamemode less of a safeland, in fact they just piss off newbs from staying, and make people not want to leave town.

That's certainly one way to put the issue in to perspective.

A couple of problems. If you implement this system, raiders will no longer drop armor or weapons in the matter of fact (mainly the reason why I kill raiders). Wouldn't make sense to apply this to players only. It will make people less frightful of taking risks since they don't have to worry about loosing their gear.

Here is what I propose. Allow the player the freedom of picking 1 item from their equipment menu in which they wouldn't loose. You could even still force a repair system if necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:20 pm

Harambe Jr. wrote:


A couple of problems. If you implement this system, raiders will no longer drop armor or weapons in the matter of fact (mainly the reason why I kill raiders).

Raider's don't follow the same rules as players, their drops are unchanged.

Harambe Jr. wrote:
Wouldn't make sense to apply this to players only. It will make people less frightful of taking risks since they don't have to worry about loosing their gear. 

Please read the rest of the forum posts before yours, I've already gone over this issue with someone else.

Bizzclaw wrote:
in case I didn't make this clear enough, it will still require hard plates, servos, MF cells, and resources to repair, so I don't think people will sacrifice power armor for the sake of doing dumb things. Hard plates alone are worth a good bit and aren't the easiest thing to come by, and don't forget that most of the time when players that are established die they get their armor back anyways.

Think about all of those situations where a player dies in a base and is revived or gets killed in a Helicopter crash or just straight up gets revived in a conglo drop and gets their loot back after having their case guarded. This happens a lot, and now with this if that happens, they'll have to pay a lot of resources and hard plates, this will be a huge money sink, hopefully stabilizing the economy.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:32 am

This is a mistake.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:35 am

sonicb0om113 wrote:
This is a mistake.
It's better than losing a set of X-01 at least.

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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:49 am

Sterben wrote:
sonicb0om113 wrote:
This is a mistake.
It's better than losing a set of X-01 at least.

Didnt know you could glue armor to your corpse and keep it past death. Wow, I must not know how life works
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:23 am

sonicb0om113 wrote:
Sterben wrote:
sonicb0om113 wrote:
This is a mistake.
It's better than losing a set of X-01 at least.

Didnt know you could glue armor to your corpse and keep it past death. Wow, I must not know how life works
                            Well I didn't know you could die then magically respawn but then again I never knew I could heal bullet wounds with a drug that can be applied to my arm, but because somehow a profession can change how many bullets or bites it takes to kill you. And somehow robes allow you to use an unpowered machine that needs power because it creates weapons from pretty much raw materials but since you wear some red robes you can make it work without power. I guess I must not know how life works sometimes.
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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:34 am

Alright so lets actually take a look at what's happening here.

in the scenario where this new system is implemented, the punishment of death should be lessened for new players, while still keeping some pressure on veterans. Instead of players loosing their items, it now transfers to a new inventory, where the option to repair gear will be a preference over rebuilding lost items.

People have been discussing the social and economic issues of this implementation, but what about the actual game mode as a whole?

People have noted that this will put a serious dent in baiting, raids, and wars- this is completely true. Items will now be circulated much less among players, and the external reward for player deaths is now -from this point- almost nothing. As stated, this also ruins some key economical factors which while people may not like, will ultimately become a liability to the game. Baiting, scamming, however we name it, is a key factor in circulation of items, and also quickly teaches players about the consequences of trusting someone too much, or not keeping calm. while this is counter-balanced by the fact that there is still loss for the baitee, the baiters will have much less motivation to scam players, therefore will eventually fade.

The game mechanics are also altered in a way that money (resources, you know what i mean) can now more regularly be transferred between players, rather than disappearing into the games crafting sinkhole. this means that there will be less money disappearing, and will increase the general wealth of the community. while this can be a positive thing, do we really need an artificially infinite supply of gear? Rare items or items that require blueprints will rise in price, due to less circulation of this gear. someone earlier mentioned that scamming can still be viable as specific classes may be needed to repair specific items. this is a very weak, and once again artificial boundary. established players who have high tier items in need of repair will very likely also have trusted persons who can be sure to repair the item. This does not apply for newbies- and this will most likely be the place that scamming will migrate. While newbies may have some knowledge about scamming, they will likely not have the required relationship trees needed to make efficient use of this implementation.

At first, i really liked this idea. I liked the idea of more freely being able to use my high value gear, with the knowledge that i will not be punished as hard for death. But this change really falls into the category of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". The current method is fine, and as much as we might all like to have an easier time in the game, it is ultimately more of a detriment than a benefit.

So its all good and well for me to talk about why this is bad, but how can we still revise the death system?

As of now, player deaths can still be improved. Because the current stigma is indeed fear of losing gear, this can be fixed by restricting player cases to faction members only (not allies) and the victim for the first five or so minutes of their spawning.

Ok OK, so you may not agree with me at this point, but just hear me out. I believe this change can spark a number of additional changes that can benefit the faction system.

With the recent release of the witness system, faction members can be killed by simply being in a line of sight of another member as he is killed. This has already caused issues for people, and has encouraged factions to keep a closer watch on their members. In an attempt to refine this system, a console message should be sent to players who are at risk of being killed due to the witness system. this message should simply warn the player that a member has died (obviously this can be kept in RP, such as "You hear a fellow member scream in pain..", IDK, this isn't really my biggest concern at the moment). This paired with the suggestion of a 5 minute faction only access to cases really helps to create a stronger bond between faction members, and benefits individual security by displaying a warning.

In conclusion, I dont think that this is the way to go, but i think that the system can definitely be improved (I don't like criticizing without providing my own proposition.) Thanks for the read.

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PostSubject: Re: Player death revision: Repair System   Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:18 am

sonicb0om113 wrote:
I must not know how life works
Irrelevant, this is a game.

I appreciate your opinions, but at least make an attempt to justify them, otherwise it just looks like you're complaining.
Further posts like this will be discarded. If you have something constructive to give, give it. Otherwise It's not worth my time to read it, or your time to post it.
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